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Last updated on Oct-18-2019 Download

still worth it ?

still worth it ?
by on (#182048)
Hi,

I have been following some tutorials (bazz) for snes dev, so I got my tiles and a sprite moving uppon the keys of my keyboard .... yay

but honestly, is it still worth the hasstle ?

I been telling me, who cares there is no more snes around, it just the fun of assembler, but honnestly it's not fun, especialy if I am aiming to make a game like zelda 3

is there people still programming the snes ?
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182050)
We have lots of long threads on this here. Yes, the lack of an acceptable compiler is a significant issue, a few people make snes homebrew anyway, and there are other consoles where you could make a Link to the Past-alike much easier than SNES right now. Genesis, Dreamcast, GBA mainly.

There's an upcoming Genesis release in Brazil next year, so that's one console not quite dead yet ;)
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182051)
You're the only only who can tell if coding for an old console is with it or not. Opinions will vary greatly from people to people, but since you're the one doing the coding, ultimately you'll be the one to tell whether your time is being well spent or not.

If you don't find it fun at all, that could be a problem. Finishing a game is a long journey, and if you don't enjoy the process, you'll likely not get very far. Money isn't guaranteed either, so I doubt that it alone could serve as motivation to finish a complex SNES game. We don't make retro games because we want to get rich or because we want to reach big audiences, we do it because we love these old platforms, and being able to add something to their libraries of games can feel very rewarding.

I find coding for the NES really fun, I love coding in assembly. Some obstacles may be frustrating at times, but finding solutions to these problems is really gratifying for me, and it motivates me to go on. Progress isn't always as steady as I'd like, but for me this isn't limited to NES projects, as I often get too hung up on specific issues, which prevents me from moving forward. This is something I have to change about myself though, and has nothing to do with retro game programming in particular.

Having complete control over the hardware of an old console and creating a world that relies on it is a very gratifying experience for me, and I really enjoy every bit of the journey. The ultimate goal is the game, yes, but depending on its complexity it can take a long time to get to the point where you have a finished product, so I think it's essential that you also enjoy the journey that'll eventually lead to the finished project.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182072)
I think it's a good idea to start with an entire 64kb of ROM to be exactly what shows up in VRAM when you start the game, with title screens and stuff.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182081)
yes but is there still an audience for snes games ?

when I see how stiff the architecture is compared to a java/c++ game on pc (or recent consoles)

making something as complex as a link to the past (or any gba equivalent), is quiet a challenge

I used to like to learn asm when I was a kid, but I was wondering the size of snes retro gamers community...personal fun is one thing, but having people playing the game(even for free) is a nice motivation

(for instance even the AVGN game is made for pc)
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182082)
I, for one, would be excited to see more SNES games.

And, why does everyone take a 'go it alone' approach? If you don't like 65816 asm, maybe you could design graphics or levels for someone else's game. Collaborate.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182083)
I want to see the SNES homebrew scene get a lot bigger. The more people get involved the more people can share each other's advice.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182091)
not that I dont like it... I been programming many different platforms in assembler

it's just a lot more work than doing it on a more recent platform
even arduino's avr ships are programmed in c++ nowadays

is there a SNES "scene" at least ?
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182094)
phil123456 wrote:
is there a SNES "scene" at least ?


Yes, but a very small one (on the dev side). For a cart release, there is an audience.

The consoles I mentioned above can all use C++, btw.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182095)
calima wrote:
phil123456 wrote:
is there a SNES "scene" at least ?


Yes, but a very small one (on the dev side). For a cart release, there is an audience.

The consoles I mentioned above can all use C++, btw.


I got a thing for snes :-) btw I read somewhere gba and snes were related, like almost the same console
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182096)
Not really. They're about as similar as the Genesis and Super NES are. The Genesis, like the GBA, has a more C-friendly processor and can write to video memory at any time, not just during vertical blanking, and its tiled graphics mode uses packed pixels rather than bit planes.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182097)
yep, found some link, apparently easier to program
http://www.loirak.com/gameboy/gbatutor.php
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182099)
phil123456 wrote:
I read somewhere gba and snes were related, like almost the same console

That's the Master System and the Game Gear. SNES and GBA are fairly different, but I can see how some people would get the impression that they're similar due to the number of games ported from the SNES to the GBA.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182101)
phil123456 wrote:
yes but is there still an audience for snes games ?

when I see how stiff the architecture is compared to a java/c++ game on pc (or recent consoles)

making something as complex as a link to the past (or any gba equivalent), is quiet a challenge

I used to like to learn asm when I was a kid, but I was wondering the size of snes retro gamers community...personal fun is one thing, but having people playing the game(even for free) is a nice motivation

(for instance even the AVGN game is made for pc)

To ask a rhetorical question: is there still an audience for PC games?

There are loads and loads of PC games that are released and nobody plays, despite it being an ubiquitous platform.

Finding an audience has a lot more to do with making a compelling game than it does choosing a platform.

Making a good game is hard, on any platform. It's even harder on retro platforms.


So, no I don't think a retro platform is a good choice if you're trying to maximize your audience. There are people interested in the platform that would love to try almost everything that comes out for it (this includes myself and a lot of people here), but it's a tiny niche. I don't think this is a good reason to make a game for SNES.

There are lots of good reasons to make a game for the SNES, but seeking an audience isn't one of those, in my opinion. Do it because you love the format. Do it because you love the challenge. Do it because it makes you feel good.

If you want to maximize your audience, the primary goal should be to make a good game. A good game can draw people in that aren't normally interested in the platform. If your game is not worth installing an emulator for, most people won't. (Most people don't have an emulator at the ready.) For that, there's a secondary goal to make it as easily available on popular platforms as possible. Package with an integrated emulator on PC, or use an HTML5 emulator to run it in a browser, or do something to make it easy to run so you're not just limited to people who know their way around emulators.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182108)
If somebody has a PC, they can play it on an emulator.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182114)
rainwarrior wrote:
Package with an integrated emulator on PC

Which such "integrated emulator" is available for use in proprietary projects? Steam and modern-console stores don't accept copylefted software (source), and last time I checked, lamenes (mentioned by lidnariq) was the only one that wasn't under a copyleft license.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182115)
tepples wrote:
Steam and modern-console stores don't accept copylefted software


I can think of two Steam releases that use Mednafen, and they probably aren't the only ones. Steam Greenlight also hosts several games which are themselves FOSS or built on FOSS game engines (Warsow, for example).
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182119)
tepples wrote:
rainwarrior wrote:
Package with an integrated emulator on PC

Which such "integrated emulator" is available for use in proprietary projects? Steam and modern-console stores don't accept copylefted software (source), and last time I checked, lamenes (mentioned by lidnariq) was the only one that wasn't under a copyleft license.

I don't really care to get into a debate about the labyrinth of requirements you're unnecessarily heaping upon this.

My point was that if all you make is a ROM, only a niche will play it. Everybody here is comfortable with emulators, but this is not true of the world at large. If you want to expand your audience, it's a problem you should try to address.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182121)
Quote:
but honnestly it's not fun

Then for you, I can tell you right away you'd be better off making a game using C or something on the PC. I don't care how much you want to make a game, if you don't like the programming, you'll give up long before you'll finish.

Quote:
And, why does everyone take a 'go it alone' approach? If you don't like 65816 asm, maybe you could design graphics or levels for someone else's game. Collaborate.

I'm planning on doing that once I get something presentable, as in once I am completely done with all my object code and also handle some extra stuff like updating the tilemap and generating objects based on where you are in the level. I'm much more into programming than I am into actually making a game. The reason I've barely gotten anywhere is all the crap I have this semester (high school and college classes) and also my perfectionism taking over, especially when I realized how little CPU time there really is.

calima wrote:
Yes, but a very small one (on the dev side).

Listing as many people as I can, I'd say there's psychopathicteen, Ramsis, 93143, Undisbeliever, maybe Khaz (he has been increasingly absent) and maybe me. :lol:

phil123456 wrote:
apparently easier to program

You'll find nearly everything is, at least with programming for the video hardware.

psycopathicteen wrote:
If somebody has a PC, they can play it on an emulator.

The only way I've been able to test anything. I'm not really eager to bust out $220 for an SD2SNES, especially with how accurate BSNES and its derivatives are.

But yeah, I like the idea of the built in emulator for widespread release.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182122)
Quote:
Listing as many people as I can, I'd say there's psychopathicteen, Ramsis, 93143, Undisbeliever, maybe Khaz (he has been increasingly absent) and maybe me. :lol:


And Shiru is making an SNES game. And all the people at Piko Interactive. And 'Sydney Hunter and the Caverns of Death' John Lester.

And maybe me next year.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182129)
Shiru? It's been ages since we saw him the last time. (Well, 2014 apparently). He does SNESdev?
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182134)
http://nintendoage.com/forum/messagevie ... did=163537

Quote:
The game is planned to be a cross between Boulder Dash and Bomber Man, and focused on relatively fast-paced movement through more or less straightforward levels in search for the exit while fighting the enemies, rather than exploration of maze-like levels to collect all diamonds.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182136)
Espozo wrote:

Quote:
And, why does everyone take a 'go it alone' approach? If you don't like 65816 asm, maybe you could design graphics or levels for someone else's game. Collaborate.

I'm planning on doing that once I get something presentable, as in once I am completely done with all my object code and also handle some extra stuff like updating the tilemap and generating objects based on where you are in the level. I'm much more into programming than I am into actually making a game. The reason I've barely gotten anywhere is all the crap I have this semester (high school and college classes) and also my perfectionism taking over, especially when I realized how little CPU time there really is.

Are you running into slowdown, or are you just worrying about it?
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182232)
I just started working on an in-game level editor, but then I realized HiROM carts only have cart SRAM in 8kB chunks which makes it more difficult. Is there a way to arrange cart SRAM in a nicer way for a HiROM game?
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182239)
I've begun to answer the battery RAM mapping question in a reply to this topic, and I encourage anyone else who can help out to do so as well.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182248)
psycopathicteen wrote:
Are you running into slowdown, or are you just worrying about it?

I know I will when I implement more things. I don't even have any sort of collision detection yet, and that's going to be a big hit. I've had it to where all my extra object routines run at the end of all of the object's code, but I think I'll get rid of that and have each object jump to the metasprite routine and back and stuff like that. This is slower because you need to keep setting up the routine for every object, but not every object should need to use the routine as simpler objects (like a projectile) can be hardcoded, which I believe will make up for the loss as no game will ever have close 128 complex objects.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182258)
Are you still going to use dynamic animation, or is that only going to be used for certain objects?

Back on the topic of level editors running on the target system, I can also make a bitmap conversion tool running on the snes hardware. Give it a palette to work with and it will automatically match each pixel.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182259)
With how my system will be, I can do whatever I want to, so it depends. I'll probably reserve a tiny amount of ram (in that the vram finder table will be marked as full there) for small but frequently used bullets, as there are much of them and require a lot of cpu time but take next to no room. Anything like coins, if I were to make a game like that, would probably just have vram reserved in the same way, but would take up more space for multiple frames. I'd definitely take the cpu hit for dynamically looking for vram for explosions though as the hit is too great otherwise (a small 8x8 bullet is much less bad than 8 32x32 explosion frames, which is what I'd have at minimum). I could still have explosions be hardcoded though otherwise, just jump to a different piece of code for each frame (very bloated in terms of space, but I could give a damn, especially with how much something like this gets run). I think my strategy is going to be something like try to have everything be convenient to the game designer, but if I'm running slowdown issues, start hardcoding to make it faster, but more convoluted and bloated. Really, I can fall back on this about as much as I want, although I don't want to of course and would rather look to optimize the code first (I don't count hardcoding as optimizing, although it is faster).
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#182473)
Here's the level editor I've been working on! :D
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#184859)
tepples wrote:
Steam and modern-console stores don't accept copylefted software


You realize Steam distributes Blender, right? They accept copylefted software just fine.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#184940)
furrykef wrote:
tepples wrote:
Steam and modern-console stores don't accept copylefted software

You realize Steam distributes Blender, right? They accept copylefted software just fine.

I've bought games from Steam that ended up being ScummVM bundled with the game data, so that must be fine too.
Re: still worth it ?
by on (#184941)
Quote:
yes but is there still an audience for snes games ?


I think there's and audience for physical releases beside steam/gog. However one should be shure to provide both american and japanese/european shells to go with the game as to make it easy for people outside the hobbyist circle.